Running "enterprise" applications like Microsoft Exchange, Microsoft SQL Server, Oracle Database, and many others on VMware is a topic that becomes more popular as virtualization continues to grow. Initial uses of VMware's virtualiazation products are often focused on test and development or consolidation. Following this initial phase many find that there are administrative and management advantages to using virutalization and want to move more applications or servers onto a virtualized platform. This chat topic is meant to disucss the questions and issues that come up when enterprise applications are under consideration for movement onto a virutlaizaiton product like VMware ESX Server.

Technical Community - Background Reading

TechCenter - Exchange and VMware
TechCenter - SQL Server and VMware
TechCenter - Virtual NIC Performance - Virtual Frontier Blog

IT-Manage Blog - Microsoft and VMware
VMware Community - Virtualizing Exchange 2003/2007 for 4500 users
VMware Community - Exchange Performance

VMware - Virtualize Your Exchange Server 2007
VMware Support Statement
Microsoft Support Policy

Chat Transcript

	DELL-ToddM	Hello
	DELL-ScottH	heynow !
	DELL-ToddM	We're just waiting for everybody to join
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	DELL-ToddM	Welcome slbrown
	slbrown	hello todd & scott
	DELL-ToddM	We're just waiting for the crowd to gather
	slbrown	understood.
	DELL-ToddM	Any virtualization of apps stuff you want to cover today?
	slbrown	nothing off the top of my head. do you plan on explaining the way our management apps work with esx?
	DELL-ToddM	Sure - Server Administrator, Drac, and Ita? Others?
	DELL-ScottH	classic Esx or embedded ?
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	slbrown	Sa & Suu on classic and embedded.
	DELL-ScottH	did you see my post on Suu on esx ?
	slbrown	yes i remember seeing it now.
	DELL-ScottH	http://www.delltechcenter.com/page/04%2f10%2f2008+-+script+for+applying+dell+server+updates+in+esx+3.x
	DELL-ScottH	that's for Esx classic .... for 3i you'd have to boot from the Sbuu
	DELL-ToddM	Let's get started - I guess that we kind of already have.
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	DELL-ScottH	hey Marc
	DELL-ToddM	Welcome to this week's Techtuesday discussion around virtualization of "enterprise apps"
	dell-marcfarley	yo!
	DELL-ToddM	Things like Exchange, Sql, Oracle - you know, the important stuff
	DELL-ToddM	Yo Marc!
	dell-marcfarley	Just curious, do you know if the servers we run the chat software on are virtualized?
	slbrown	what about Sap?
	DELL-ScottH	Todd locked up, he'll be back in a sec
	DELL-ScottH	the hosting company for the chat software is on a dedicated Dell Poweredge 1950
	DELL-ScottH	we upgraded before the equallogic chat, which was worth it because we had over 50 attendees, but I'm sure the 1950 had noooo problems keeping up :-)
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	DELL-ScottH	Todd say's we can take a run at Sap too
	dell-marcfarley	Sap, R U using Oracle as the backend?
	DELL-ToddM	I return!
	dell-marcfarley	Ta Dah! nick of time
	DELL-ToddM	I know that Sap has been run on Vmware by quite a few folks for test and dev
	DELL-ToddM	I haven't yet talked to a customer that is running Sap, but I do know that Vmware has some resources dedicated to it
	DELL-ToddM	So there is interest, even in running things like Sap
	DELL-ToddM	So - in terms of management
	DELL-ToddM	Openmange is supported with Vmware Esx
	DELL-ToddM	Server Administrator can be installed on the service console of Esx classic
	DELL-ToddM	This has been true since Esx 2.x (with increasing level of support over time)
	slbrown	okay. thanks.
	DELL-ToddM	With Openmange 5.4 Ita will see Esx servers as Esx servers (and not an unkown system)
	DELL-ToddM	The Drac can also be used with Esx for remote management with full console redirection
	DELL-ScottH	install guide is easy to follow, and updated for esx 3.5 --> http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/solutions/installing_dell_openmanage_on_esx.pdf
	DELL-ToddM	Of course most of the day to day management of Vmware Esx servers is done with Virtual Center
	DELL-ToddM	Openmange covers the hardware side
	DELL-ToddM	With the Esx 3i (or is it 3.5i) there will be integration of some Dell hardware info into Virtual Center
	DELL-ToddM	So you will be able to view hardware health for the dell servers in Virtual Center
	dell-marcfarley	I don't want to ask a dumb questions, but what parameters does Openmanage report on that are particularly useful for Vmware sites?
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	DELL-ToddM	The stuff that is useful is alerts about hardware failures - or potential failures
	DELL-ScottH	Welcome Hywel
	DELL-ToddM	So if the Temp is getting too hot, or a disk fails, or a power supply fails
	DELL-ToddM	Openmange will report this, so that action can be taken to avert server downtime
	DELL-ToddM	Or avert Vm downtime
	Hywel	hello, sorry guess i am a little late
	DELL-ScottH	click on "action" recent room history and it will catch you up
	DELL-ToddM	so you can vmotion your Vms to other healty servers - while you remedy the alert that Openmanage sent out
	DELL-ToddM	We even did a demo that showed how you could automate this type of Vmotion in the event of a potnetial Hw failure
	dell-marcfarley	Cool, Is it still available?
	DELL-ToddM	I'm trying to figure out if we recorded it and where it would be
	DELL-ToddM	We used it in the booth at several trade shows
	DELL-ToddM	There was scripting involved to make it all work
	dell-marcfarley	I'm sure there was scripting - unlike these chats Lol
	DELL-ScottH	Here's the link to the paper, it's a little dated , by idea is still solid --> http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/solutions/om-vmware-integration.pdf
	DELL-ToddM	A lot of this functionality is now covered by Vmware Ha
	DELL-ToddM	I feel a good comment coming from Hywel....
	Hywel	i guess we are chatting abou3 3i and management, Omsa seems now to be able to do this. We are an altiris customer to get inventory info, etc. is there similar progress in this area too, i know dell are very close to altiris (now symantec)
	DELL-ScottH	here's a more up to date paper on the subject from Dell Virtulization engineering team --> http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/power/ps2q07-20070131-chandrasekaran.pdf
	DELL-ScottH	and here's mine on Ha Drs with Vmware --> http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/dell_and_vmware_drs_ha_solutions.pdf
	Hywel	sorry this is about other topics but i guess it all comes down to reliability, managment and performance
	DELL-ScottH	hmmmmmm, "legal guidelines prohibit us from commenting on future products" ... that may be coming soon :-)
	DELL-ToddM	The topic for today is virtualization of enterprise apps - but management is important if you are going to virtualize them
	DELL-ToddM	That's how we got here
	DELL-ToddM	You are right about reliability and performance also being important
	DELL-ToddM	The other issue that comes up a lot is support
	Hywel	we have been vm'ing a fair few ms sql servers recently
	DELL-ToddM	What type of Sql server Dbs? Oltp? Dss?
	Hywel	some really good performace improvements
	DELL-ToddM	Performance improvement - over previous physical servers?
	DELL-ToddM	I have seen performance improvement with Esx 3 and 3.5 in terms of I/o for Sql Servers
	Hywel	data crunchers to form xml and then passing off to be inserted into a data wherehouse
	Hywel	these were on physical Ibm x346 with local disks and we migrated to Pe1955 on vmware with san backend about 100% improvement in time for the process to complete
	DELL-ToddM	That's an impressive gain!
	DELL-ToddM	I would guess that a large part of the performance improvement is the San
	DELL-ToddM	Did you also consolidate?
	Hywel	yeah we went from about 50 physical servers to 7 :)
	Hywel	plus another 30 vm's
	DELL-ScottH	hey I still hold a little Ibm stock, did you have to consolidate that much :-) ...... but I own more dell stock now !
	dell-marcfarley	I suspect the data was spread more evenly over the disks - avoiding hot spots?
	DELL-ScottH	how many more spindles ?
	DELL-ToddM	One of the big stumbling blocks that many run into is the acceptance of application owners of virtualization
	DELL-ToddM	Guys just don't want their stuff virutlaized becuase they fear that it will hurt their performance
	DELL-ToddM	Did you have to overcome any issues like this in your org?
	dell-marcfarley	My guess is that there were fewer spindles going from 50 servers to seven, but the distribution of the data was probbaly better.
	Hywel	well this is quite interesting....5 physical x345 each with 6 disks. changed to 3 vmfs luns with Os, file shares and Db's all of which were raid 5's ( as we were short of space)
	Hywel	os on 5 disks, files shares on 9 and db on 9
	Hywel	we had to put the move some of the db onto a raid 10 later as we got more disks
	Hywel	that improved things even more
	DELL-ToddM	This is Dell|emc (clariion)?
	Hywel	yep, cx3-40c
	dell-marcfarley	It doesn't get much faster than Raid 10
	DELL-ToddM	You are using the fibre side of the combo? (I know that Marc is a huge iscsi fan)
	Hywel	nah, can't wait for ssd's to come
	dell-marcfarley	I won't let that bother me ::biglips
	DELL-ToddM	Hey - you can get them in the Xps notebooks
	DELL-ScottH	you have budget , early adopter ?
	Hywel	just fibre in fact i think we made a mistake getting the c not the f
	DELL-ToddM	I thought that they only made the c(combo) now?
	Hywel	we got an 3-40f for a Db and it flies! 4 busses like the 3-80
	Hywel	i think you are correct earlier when you said, its the san which help....i think we see so many benifit for san storage with "normal" systems its hard to put a value to it
	DELL-ToddM	One question that I get alot is about Microsoft support for these types of solutions - Did you ever have any concerns about support?
	Hywel	yes, this weekend had a major exchange outage and the second question Ms asked is is your system on vmware
	Hywel	i think they say only best efforts will be made to solve the problem....but it does make you think
	DELL-ToddM	Hey - I thought there was a don't ask / don't tell policy!
	DELL-ToddM	So - you guys don't have Exchange on Vmware today?
	Hywel	well i have a small system, in our production environment on vmware but its really an smtp relay
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	Hywel	thinking about our office system at the moment
	DELL-ToddM	I have tried to find examples of people finding issues with Exchange that were due to Vmware - but have not found one yet
	DELL-ToddM	Although I guess that searching with google and within Vmtn is not an exhaustive search
	Hywel	no but another Ms support guy suggest they have *lots* of Isa problems due to vmware....i doubt it to be onest
	DELL-ToddM	::biggrin
	Hywel	i saw the other day that ibm broke some record hosting exchange on vmware which is interesting
	DELL-ToddM	I think that performance can be an issue if you try to move too large a workload
	DELL-ToddM	Yes - I saw that post too. Very interesting
	DELL-ScottH	Todd was just talking about that this am, and said he's going to do 16,001 !
	DELL-ToddM	We just got a new server in the lab that would be capable of the same user count on a single box
	DELL-ToddM	r900 with 128gb of Ram - http://www.delltechcenter.com/page/04%2f14%2f2008+-+screenshot+for+geeks+-+comments
	Dell-MarcF	We need a new section for Vmware in the Guiness book
	DELL-ToddM	The methodology that was used to create the Exchange Vms was inline with what I presented at Vmworld in Sept - http://www.delltechcenter.com/page/exchange+and+vmware
	DELL-ToddM	Using 1000 user Vms to scale up Exchange
	DELL-ToddM	I'm not sure that running 16000 Exchange users on a single server is something that most people will do - but it is a cool number
	DELL-ScottH	16001 is a cooler number
	Hywel	sorry back to work not play ;)...... the only the biggst issue i am seeing with vmware at the moment it the network performance...we struggle to get >250mb/s out of the vm's do you guys see this
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	DELL-ToddM	I haven't measured the network throughput from Vms during the testing that I have done
	DELL-ScottH	click on a link, eh ?
	DELL-ToddM	Most of the time it has been Oltp or Exchange messaging traffic - which is small
	DELL-ToddM	I will see what info I can find and post it to the home page for this chat
	Hywel	yeah, unfortunately more of our Db maintenance plans still use sql backups for network performace is pretty inportant
	Hywel	yeah clicked on link :S
	DELL-ToddM	Have you looked into a Vcb type backup solution?
	Hywel	yeah i am using vbc with vranger
	Hywel	but....
	DELL-ToddM	I know this is an issue with Db - as the database has to be stopped or paused or something
	DELL-ToddM	to ensure consistency
	Hywel	there isn't any quesing as we have had problems with the lgtodriver and had to disable it
	Hywel	i with they could sync with vss and vcb that would be really cool
	DELL-ToddM	I believe that Vmware (and some others) are working on that
	Hywel	i think all in all that vmware whether it be with sql, iis whatever really has so many more positives than negatives.....even the sceptical in work are won over with it
	DELL-ToddM	I agree that the gains in flexibility of managment (and general cool stuff you can do with Vmotion) make it pretty compelling
	Hywel	yeah...one thing not sure that you guys have come across....the we were pretty low on memory about 70% usage across the Ha cluster....when we were upgrading from 16GB per server to 32gb.....and put servers into maintenance we struggled with some sql servers
	Hywel	as vmotion migrated some machines it doesn't seem to be as good judging memory as cpu. hense some pserver got close to their physcial limit
	Hywel	it was my understanding that they would start using the vswp files on the vmfs volume be Sql seemed to strugle with this and two hung :(
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	Hywel	i thought the vswp file would be used in a situation where there was low physical ram but sql failed to use this
	DELL-ToddM	I did see some performance issues with some Exchange 2007 Vms and Sql Server 2005 Vms when I oversubscribed the Ram and then did Vmotion
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	DELL-ToddM	The peformance would be Ok until after the Vmotion, then the Vms would struggle in terms of performance.
	DELL-ToddM	But I didn't actually hang them up
	DELL-ToddM	They were struggling becuase they were using the vswp files and performance suffered as a result
	Hywel	in fact it was even worse than just hanging cos vmware then tried to vmotion them to another server and failed half way through and then had to wait for a time out
	DELL-ToddM	So the lesson learned was to keep extra capacity for things like this?
	Hywel	yes deffo
	DELL-ToddM	Not the best answer, but you did consolidate down to a much smaller number of servers
	Hywel	but this is one thing drs doesn't do well is try and balance ram as well as cpu
	DELL-ToddM	Good point
	Hywel	well we consolidated then lots more were added....vm sprawl!
	DELL-ToddM	Well - that's one of the things that happens ::biggrin
	Hywel	yeah
	DELL-ToddM	Management of Vms includes a different set of things than physical servers
	Hywel	i am really glad i came across this site....a real good resource....the hardest thing i find with work is quickly finding the things which are important for a given task and not having to read whole manuals to locate some thing written in "code "
	Hywel	with the correct input i think it could really help users of dell equipment
	DELL-ToddM	Thansk for the comments. Well - we are way over our time. Should probably wrap it up
	DELL-ScottH	I'm with you on that ... welcome aboard and we welcome all your contributions to the site
	Hywel	especially after moving from ibm server it was hard to userstand what software could do and how to do it
	DELL-ToddM	You're a decoder ring guy
	DELL-ScottH	did you use our secert decoder ring ?
	Hywel	nope?
	DELL-ScottH	http://www.delltechcenter.com/page/04%2f03%2f2008+-+secret+decoder+ring
	Hywel	did i stumble across some Cia trap ;)
	DELL-ToddM	Hey - Scott. What is next week's topic?
	Hywel	ah i saw the logo didn't read the writing ;)
	DELL-ScottH	quick tip, if you right click on the links, you won't get kicked out :-)
	DELL-ScottH	Next week's topic is "openmanage - Power Monitoring"
	DELL-ToddM	Hywel - thanks for the excellent discussion
	DELL-ScottH	yes, thanks
	DELL-ToddM	You can contact us anytime through the Delltechcenter discussion forums
	Hywel	ahhhhhh...cool topic....one tip can you please send a international time friendly invite :)
	Hywel	what is Cst anyway
	Hywel	i have seen our R900 power reading that is cool
	DELL-ScottH	Central Standard Time - Us (-600) I believe
	Hywel	now all we need it a rack layout with It assistant and the servers in it and hey presto ;)
	DELL-ToddM	We have a link to a calendar invite - that I think is Time Zone aware - on the Chat page http://www.delltechcenter.com/page/chat+topics+and+transcripts
	DELL-ScottH	Yes, I've been asking for that ... what I do here is to create groups called Rack 1, Rack 2, etc and place the servers in those groups
	DELL-ToddM	I've gotta run to another meeting, but really appreciate the conversation
	DELL-ToddM	I hope to see you next week
	Hywel	yes...we have a limit of 2kw per rack this is what we need
	Hywel	yes i'll try to be there thanks.....
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	Hywel	anyway i had better run too....thanks all
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